Teaching, Mentorship & The Future of Communications: A Conversation with Sukhi Sahni and Sarab Kochhar

Erik  12:26

want to welcome all of our listeners to another episode of MRP, Minority Report podcast with Erik and Kerel. Each episode, we talk with real operators and leaders in media, tech and business, and today, joining us is Sukhi Sahni, who's a friend of the show and been on before, and also. Sarab Kochhar, we are delighted to have you both, and very privileged to have two great, very accomplished individuals in corporate America. Would love to talk to you about all kinds of exciting things. Sukhi, welcome back. How are you and Sarab, welcome.

‍

Sukhi Sahni  13:03

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having us, and can't believe life brought us full circle back. And thank you for this opportunity. So excited to be here, especially to be in the same room with Sarab today.

‍

Erik  13:14

Absolutely. Sarab, welcome.

‍

Sarab Kochhar  13:16

Thank you so much, Erik, so nice to be here, and so nice to be a part of this conversation, which I'm positive, you know, the way it has shaped the conversations around minority I'm so excited to be a part of that conversation. So thanks again. Absolutely.

‍

Erik  13:32

I think we're in for a real treat today to sort of talk through. I think what's pretty interesting that you know, certainly you two have very deep experience in not only sort of, I think, an idea, but really a practice, in a way of sort of being and interacting. And we'll get into that in a little bit, which I think is really important. But for those that don't know, don't know you, Sarab, tell us a little bit about tell us a little bit about you and what keeps you busy.

‍

Sarab Kochhar  14:06

Oh, talking about, you know, the work, my work and my area of expertise, I work in communication and strategy. I work at the Gates Foundation, based in Seattle, Washington, and my work focuses on impact, equity and storytelling that drives real change. So at its core, I'm really looking at business strategy and communication and really making sure that people understand the shared humanity, which brings us all together. So communication strategy, lots of impact, all build it on storytelling is what I do.

‍

Erik  14:41

Thank you, Sukhi. What's keeping you busy these days?

‍

Sukhi Sahni  14:44

You know, things have shifted a little bit. I'm sort of in a phase right now, and I'm really enjoying it. Took the summer off when I left my job recently last year, and I've been advising a couple of startups, so really trying to, you know, take a peek behind the scenes into what really goes through when somebody has a business idea, and how do they put that through life and the role that communications plays, I would say, since our last conversation, what I've truly enjoyed is being an educator. So not only Georgetown, I'm actually really excited in a couple of weeks, I'll be starting in a couple of other places, just teaching and continuing that, and just just been amazed at all the changes that are happening. As you all have seen the world around is changing faster than we would want to. It's impacting Sarab and I's, you know, industry quite a bit. So I think I'm really enjoying sort of, you know, tackling into that space, doing some fractional work. But I would love for my legacy to really start building on being a futurist now and see what the future has to hold for us right now. But other than that, still digging out of snow here in Virginia.

‍

Kerel Cooper  15:47

So yeah, we all know about about the snow on the East Coast and Sukhi, I think one thing that has changed on my end since our last conversation, I have gotten into teaching now too, at the university level as well, too. And I would say that it's been one of the most rewarding experiences that I've, that I've had throughout my career, is being able to be in the classroom and really sort of do my best to positively impact the next generation.

‍

Sukhi Sahni  16:19

Yeah, yeah. And I think you hit upon the word there so much the positive past, right? Because I have a I have a young junior who's really stressed out, because apparently, 11th grade, you're supposed to be stressed out. And I think the fact that we've made that so normal for these kids in today's day and age tells you so I think any anything that we can do to let them know that the future is still bright and there's a lot that they can do. I think, I think if we can get that message wrong, it's such a, such a game changer.

‍

Sarab Kochhar  16:48

I'm I'm so glad you, you both are talking about your teaching experiences, because I have a PhD in in business strategy and comms, and when I look back and think about my PhD days, one of the, one of the ways we would get our monthly stipend was to teach undergrad kids, and that was one of the life lessons of saying when you are in a in a different country, and you are studying and doing a pursuing a PhD, and how you really make sure that you're not just a teacher, but a mentor as well. Really shaped me a lot on what I am today, you know, and absolutely, just the ability as a professional to go back and teach and give back to the students and make sure that they see that future is bright to sukhis point and there is still hope, and which I am absolutely an optimist, I believe there is, is such a great contribution. So hats off to you, Sukhi and Kerel, that you know you're doing, that you're making a difference to students life and shaping our generations to come?

‍

Sukhi Sahni  17:44

Yeah, I actually have a fun, fun story. Can I? Can I share with all of you? You will get a kick out of this. So, so when I met Sarab, we met professionally, and then somehow we figure out I brought her name up to my family, and my majority of my family's back in India, and my youngest sister in law. Somehow her name came up in a conversation, and Sarab like, Oh, I know her. I'm like, How do you know her? Like, at this point, we didn't know that we had a common person in contact. And then she was like, Well, I taught her when I was back in India. I'm like, Oh my God, just imagine, out of all the people in the world, she ends up teaching my sister in law, and I feel like we've never looked back since then, but I talking about education and talking about how you can make connections and inroads. I thought that was a really fun story.

‍

Sarab Kochhar  18:28

I think the kick is not out of the fact that I taught her, the kick is out of the fact that I was a good teacher and she had good memories of me. How do you know her happy that I was a favorite teacher. So that is, that is the best part.

‍

Erik  18:44

That's great. What is, what a small world, big world, right? And then also, what a fun story. I think that's awesome. And that's only just part of, kind of, like, your remarkable journey, really, through, you know, your career, your studies. I think it's fascinating, right? Two Indian immigrants who come and to the US for higher studies Connect. Here are our leading forces in their industry. What a fantastic, serendipitous sort of connection. Again, I'm curious to learn a little bit more about you know, your journey and how you've been able to really take, you know, empathy and kind of selflessness and almost bring those things together to become a superpower in leadership. So can you talk to us a little bit about sort of those, those guiding principles, and how that started, and how you do that today.

‍

Sukhi Sahni  19:49

Do you want to go first? Sarab,

‍

Sarab Kochhar  19:51

sure, I was thinking, you know, as as I, as you were speaking about, you know, what the questions on identity, what's the background, and what brings, at least, to know me to where I am today. And as we were talking when, when we started, you know, my identity is grounded in Sukhi, which is the identity I also believe in, you know, and I also follow when I look back at where I grew up. I grew up and I was born in the city of Chandigarh, in a in a Punjabi household, with the shape, with the value system of what is right and what is wrong, but also very strongly embedded in the concepts of humility and justice. You know, which is, which is in Punjabi, called sarabhadha pala, and which translates into saying, well being of all. So when I look back at, you know, thinking, and when I think of, you know, my identity and what shaped it, you know, it's the intersection of that tradition, but also my heritage of how you really believe in the well being of all so I think this being in in a household where this concept of humility is taught to you on a regular basis that becomes who you are, but as you grow and you move across cultures and countries, that journey really influences you. But it's such a win that you stay true to those, those roots of humility, those roots of how you are wishing well for everybody and doing your bit to carry that forward as well. So I think that's something which really resonates with me as not as a person, as a mother, but also as a professional. And when I'm out there working on my day to day, I'm not just thinking about me showing up for my title or for my role or for for my work. It's not about the visibility. I always say it's about staying true to thinking about others as well. So that's something which defines a big part of who I am. That's great, yeah.

‍

Sukhi Sahni  21:50

And I would say, I think that the two things I'll build on that is very similar upbringing, very similar background. Actually, Sarab and I, our native language is called Punjabi. If you know anything about India. There's the North of India and the south of India. We both come from the north side. We love life. You can find us dancing anytime. Put the music on. It will be out there. Really great food. And I think the way they talk a lot about Punjabis is living life king size, right? But there are moments when we love to brag about ourselves and who we are. But I think it's also grounded, as Sarab said, it's grounded in Seva, this whole concept of, how do you live in a community and make sure you're doing the well being? So I think that's a really noble concept that you hear, whether you go to a Sikh temple, whether you're in a community, you know, any disasters that happen across the world, if you see a group that's going to show up, really, first and foremost is going to be that community over there as well. And then I would say the other thing you said about, how do you take that to your leadership and your professional I think this, I mean, I've been, I've been doing this for 24 years as a senior executive, and I feel like we somehow have forgotten the whole concept of kindness. And I think oftentimes you look at kind leaders as a negative and you know, it doesn't mean that you can make tough decisions. It doesn't mean that you can't work with very senior leaders. I think it just means that you take a very different stance at how you lead and how you operate, and how do you build organizations as well. So So I would say kindness and this whole concept of whatever you do has to really be the entire well being. And I think in corporate America will say that it's shared purpose. Now the shared purpose could be, you know, working towards your shareholders value, or it's taking care of your employees as well too. So I think there's a beautiful intersection between your values that you've grown up with, and then how do you bring into the corporate world as well?

‍

Kerel Cooper  23:46

I love your point about kindness as well too. You know, the class that I'm teaching this semester, it's a graduate level class on leadership, and one of the things that we do discuss in that class is, you know, leading with empathy, leading with kindness. And just because you do that, kindness doesn't equal weakness, right? There's, there's definitely, you know, a balance there and a difference there. So I love that, that point that you, you bring up Sukhi, it I have a question for both of you, you both have made a great career in communications, and I'm curious to know how did your background and up ground, or how does your background and upbringing impact the career that you've chosen and your passion for communications and Sarab, we can Start with you on that one

‍

Sarab Kochhar  24:41

sure, Kerel, I think looking back at my, my doing, you know, an upbringing, when I was growing up, one of the things that was really integral for us, not just coming from Sukhi and from the Punjabi roots that we are, is the is the concept of empathy as well. You know, how do you think about others? How do you put yourself in other shoes and think about you know, what they might need and feel? And that's where this concept of kindness, this concept of seva that Sukhi was talking about, also comes from. So when I was growing up, I'm so thankful to my parents that they really saw that ability for me to just take a pause, understand what people wanted, and this interest of mine to study human behavior, which was which really became very clear as I started with my high school and wanted to decide what I wanted to do in grad school as well. So journalism was really picking up at that time in India, although all my siblings, all my cousins, none of them are anything except an engineer or a doctor. So I was a black sheep of a kind saying, How did she not end up studying a math or a statistics or, you know, or a physics degree or being a medical doctor, and she's wanting to study English, literature and journalism. But I think that just that thinking of how you understand human behavior, how do you really start thinking about why people behave the way they do. Why do people say the things they do? Was very critical for me to pick up a career in journalism and then working in journalism, working with the Government of India, working through, you know, all those sectors just made this more and more clear, that as we think about communication, it is about, you know, to the discussion we were having earlier, not just a shared purpose, but also an understanding of how when we are looking at our stakeholders, when we are looking at our target audience, these are these unique set of people, which, as a communicator, you are thinking of them strategically. So it's a strategy driven profession. It's not a profession where you're just going and saying, I'll put up an event and that's it, you know, or I'll do a press release, and that's it, you know. It's this whole understanding of that universe, and that's what led me to come and take a pause in my career. I was working at Burson Marsteller in Bangalore, and working in the tech space with some very impressive clients, like a Hewlett Packard SAP, Texas Instruments. But that was the time when I thought, this is the time when I want to come to the US, do a PhD, understand this profession from absolutely a strategic standpoint of, how do you use data? And that's when you know the understanding of data, a research driven profession was was a new concept, and I wanted to study that. And I came in 2011 to do a PhD. I did my PhD from University of Florida. So thankful for some great professors who really shaped my career at that point. And then there has been no looking back, you know, from there on. So I think my upbringing, as I mentioned, on how do you do that humanitarian aspect, you know, how do you think about empathy? How do you think about others? But when you think about others, it's not just from a CSR perspective, it's also from that thinking and understanding from a corporate perspective on who your stakeholders are, and what is it that you know, you would do to land that message, you know, in a very bare bones way, in communication as well. So that's that's how my trajectory has been, and so thankful that I'm in a position now where I'm thinking of work and communication from a equity perspective, from a humanitarian perspective, and also from the fact of, how do we make lives better for people around the world.

‍

Erik  28:22

Great with that. Real quick, Sukhi and Sarab, let's, let's take what you were just saying about, you know, sort of leading with kindness and being able to bring this this value system. How do we roll that out today? How do, how does Sukhi and Sarab, how do we roll that out today so that it's a practice today. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah.

‍

Sukhi Sahni  28:46

I mean, I would say, I think we always say right words actually speaks louder than words, right? So again, I think I'll take the perspective of leadership as a whole, and you can't just talk about these things, and I think you almost have to show up. So kindness. I'll give you a simple example. I mean, I think if somebody asks you in an interview and say, What's the number one quality that you're looking in the people that you want to hire, I would say it's a really fine balance of EQ and IQ, because you got to be a business leader, but you also need to take care of your people. And if you're not a visionary leader. If you can bring people along and be equally loyal and see that vision together, you have to meet people where they are. So when a snowstorm happens and you've got elderly parents at home and you're stuck, and I think taking a moment back and stepping ourselves into their shoes start your first conversation. How are things at home? How are you doing, right? So simple things like that, I think we're so tuned into our daily chores and making sure we can get things off the list that a lot of leaders forget that very basic human interaction as well. So I think that's the first thing. The second thing is, as communicators, we love to talk, right? There's what is a running joke that all you guys do is talk for a living. I think there's an art in listening too. And I think that's what I've realized over the years, is this whole concept of listening understanding, and then when the moment is right, you actually interject yourself and put yourself out there as well. So you know, I'll give you a simple example, like, how do you bring your culture into who you are? It doesn't have to be broadcasted loudly with the clothes you wear or how you dress up, or your own beliefs, and, you know, trying to impart them on the people that you work with at work. One of the things I started doing was, instead of saying thank you, I use the word Sukhiya. Sukhiya is a Hindi word. It means thank you. And initially, when I started sending it, I would get an email back and say, What do you really mean by that? I said, Well, it means thank you in Hindi. It took me about four years of my last role, even my cards at the end of the year, the holiday cards, I used to send out handwritten cards to 120 people on my team. It saying, it said Sukhiya. What happened in the first four years were everybody else no longer use Thank you. In my immediate team, we started using the word Sukhiya, right? So I think, I think sometimes just being subtle and staying true to who you are allows you to do it. But this goes back to the concept that Sarab was talking about humility, right? Like knowing that you're not doing this to get brownie points and showcase as an inclusive leader, but I think it's strange true to who you are and the way that you try to lead everyday in life as well too. So so hopefully that examples gives you, but I think my philosophy is, if you believe in something, show up at that and you know and be, stay true to who you are,

‍

Sarab Kochhar  31:39

that's That's true. Sukhi, I think also, if we take a pause for a minute. Erik Kerel Sukhi, you would absolutely agree that looking at the geopolitical situation right now, you know, and looking at where we are in the world right now, the concept and the need for right leaders is so critical more than ever before. And that leadership is not just that. You have to be the leader of a country or a leader of a company or a leader of a group. You know, I think that concept of leadership could also be a leader within your family, to sukhis point, you know, a leader in way that you show up. And I think one of the ways that I believe we can bring that kindness into communication, into our systems, is how as leaders, we make sure that it's not just about being the loudest in the room. Sometimes, you know, it is also about, you know, learning, listening to sukhis point and knowing when to step back as well. I think the best leaders I have seen are the ones who always serve others first. I've never seen a leader who think about themselves first, because they'll create space for others to grow. They will share the credit. They will not center everything around themselves, and that's how they build that culture of trust. And trust is what I think moves people forward. You know, that's where we are seeing this mistrust in the society right now, with all the things that are happening with the immigration crackdown and things that we can't even get in, even if we continue this conversation for hours. You know, I think the kind of challenges we are seeing, but I think it's important for us at this kind of a platform to share this, because we are in this point in life, in our society or in the world right now, that getting the right leader or having the right leader definitely makes or breaks a nation, a company or whatever they are leading as well. So I really want to highlight that, especially at this point.

‍

Kerel Cooper  33:30

Yeah, no, it's a really good point. And, you know, I think you both just answered probably a bunch of questions that Erik and I had, which is, which is great, but I love, I love your approach to sort of leadership, and you're, you're right. It has to be, and especially in this day and age, it has to be more than just being about the numbers, right? Absolutely. And so I question, next question for both of you is, you know, if someone is listening to this podcast and they're at their early stages of their career, maybe an entry level position or mid level position, and they don't have that level of authority yet that comes with, like, senior leadership, it doesn't mean that they can't be a leader, right? You don't need a title to be a leader. What advice would you have to anyone like that that's at that early stage in their career?

‍

Sukhi Sahni  34:30

I mean, first I would say a couple of things. I think one, continue to have fun, because if you're not having fun and you're just being stressed out, it's just not going to work out. And I think we get to being 50 year old, and then we give that knowledge back to our students. I know I give that to my class all the time, so I think just just having fun in whatever you're doing is really critical. I would say three things that are really critical in my mind. Is one, I think, try to think outside the box. So if you happen to be a communications major or marketing major, just be very thoughtful about what else could you be doing so you do stand, you know, differentiated from your peers, and that's going to take some work, I think. If you all remember, in the last episode, I talked a little bit about my dad's philosophy about first deserve and desire, the hard work is not going to go away, right? Like, no matter what you do, you will have to do your part in order to be successful, but try to think outside the box, especially in a world today where everything is changing around it. Second, I would say, is take risks. I wish I had the opportunity to take more risks. As you mentioned. You know, we were international students studying in this country, so there's a lot of laws that we had to follow. I would have loved to go to New York and started my first job there, but I ended up staying in West Virginia because, you know, that's where my path was. So I think if you have the opportunity, take some big risks. And the third I would say, is there is no linear path to growth, you know? I mean, we all I wished it to until I think I left my last role, I was like, it just goes up, right? You just grow linear and straightforward. But I think take this, those experiences, and just remember, you know, continue to do your part. But there is no linear path to growth overall,

‍

Sarab Kochhar  36:14

absolutely so. So I think, Sukhi, lot of the things that you said is what we have seen as well as we started in the industry, as we grew in our careers as well. But I think two things I have really learned over the last several years, specifically as I have been in the corporate America and also in the philanthropic side of things, I would advise anybody entering the industry is that please don't confuse visibility with impact. You know, don't doubt yourself if you're not visible, and if you think that you're not in the right circles, or in you are in that inner circle. If you're not visible, that doesn't mean you're not making an impact. You know, I would say keep learning the craft, because that's important. That's through hard work, that's through smart work, that's all through through upskilling these days. You know, look at the way AI is changing our worlds, and it's changing every profession. So how do you keep learning the craft? How do you keep upskilling yourself, reskilling yourself, but please anchor yourself in values. You know you have some values as a person. You know those values, if you're true to those values, you will be able to do the changes bring yourself to where you would want to be in your career next So don't confuse visibility with impact. Never doubt yourself. Keep on to the path, keep true to your values, and march on. Is what would I believe in?

‍

Kerel Cooper  37:35

Love, that. Love that. Okay. Next question I have. And Sukhi, this is a little bit of a different question than we asked last time. It's a way for us to connect our guests to each other. What is, what is a question you both want us to ask our next guest we have on the podcast,

‍

Sukhi Sahni  38:00

I think a question that I would love for you to ask your your next guest is, what's the first thought that comes to mind when they wake up in the morning?

‍

Kerel Cooper  38:12

Love that you might hear me typing, I'm jotting that down. What about that myself?

‍

Erik  38:21

What about Lisa?

‍

Sarab Kochhar  38:23

I think, given how you both have beautifully built this podcast over the years, and how you have brought these different people together, I think I would love for the next person who's on the podcast to define one of their life values that has really made them, brought them where they are. You know, I think that's something like we were talking about kindness as that value system for us. I really think that the more we can learn from others in the field, in various fields, to say, what is that one value that they have stayed true to and also that has defined them who they are, is something I always like to learn and would love to know, you know what? What they say as an answer as well?

‍

Erik  39:06

Very cool, yeah, like, what's your Siva, yeah, that's right.

‍

Kerel Cooper  39:17

Erik was paying attention. That's right. And

‍

Sarab Kochhar  39:20

it's 6:40pm you know? So that's that's that's impressive.

‍

Erik  39:26

Well, well, thank you so much, Sarab and Sukhi, that was a lot of fun, and really, I think, a lot for for everyone to sort of think about and and a lot of great insights shared there. Sukhi, Sarab, what are some ways that our listeners can stay in touch with you and follow you. A lot of our listeners like to reach out and sort of learn more or stay in touch or follow what are some ways? I'll start with you. Sukhi, I

‍

Sukhi Sahni  39:51

would say LinkedIn is great. Please reach out, send me a direct message. I obviously add some context if you're sending me DMS, so I know what you're looking for. And you know, if you're looking for mentorship, if you're a student, if you're just looking to understand more about the industry, or if you just want to catch up with someone who's at a really interesting phase in their life, absolutely do. I think, as Sarab mentioned, we only get better when we open ourselves to diverse voices and diverse people. So So absolutely, LinkedIn is great. And I think once we connect on LinkedIn, texting, email, you know, whatever the media might be,

‍

Erik  40:26

excellent. Erik,

‍

Sarab Kochhar  40:27

I would say, for somebody in communication, the best way to reach out to me is just holler, you know, I would say, just reach out. I'm happy to share LinkedIn, absolutely the starting point, and email, even a text to sukhis point a phone call, because we we not just love talking, just because for talking, because we know that in person communication or just picking up the phone is still the most effective way of communication. So I think that would always be wonderful to do so LinkedIn to start with, but any other ways which I'm happy to share with would be the best way to reach out and connect. So it's

‍

Erik  41:02

a really good point. All these technologies that we employ use, one of the biggest features that they add at some point will be, how do you just press a call? How do you just, yeah, make a call? Isn't that? So that

‍

Sarab Kochhar  41:17

is, that's, that's what happened with Facebook. Any messenger that started, they ended up with the calling feature, you know, because they knew that was happening that had to happen. So Facebook Messenger or code at those times, you know, LinkedIn probably would be the next one to have a call and just set up a call. But yes, we are getting there.

‍

Erik  41:33

That's right, lovely. Well, thank you all so much for spending some time with us and everyone. Thank you very much for listening to another episode, you can find many more episodes where you find all of your audio and video. Just search for MRP, Minority Report podcast and look for the logo. Thanks everybody. Thanks everyone.

‍

41:50

Thank you. Thanks. Thank you. Bye.

‍

Kerel Cooper  41:56

All right, I think we're good to go. We're good, awesome.

‍

Sukhi Sahni  41:59

Yeah, let us know if you need anything. Thank you again, and congratulations on on such a such a great run. And I would love to stay in touch. Erik, I'm gonna send you a note. Let's get coffee. Absolutely. Kerel, if you're in DC anytime, please let us know too You're not that far.

‍

Kerel Cooper  42:13

Yeah, we'll do we'll do all right, thank you, and I'll keep you posted on when we launched the episode.

‍

Sukhi Sahni  42:20

We love that. Thank you so much again. Okay, thank

‍

Erik  42:23

you. Have a good

‍

Sukhi Sahni  42:24

night. Bye.

‍