In episode 137 Kerel and Erik discuss DEI with the founder at The Courage Collective, Daniel Oppong. Coming from immigrant parents from Ghana, West Africa, Daniel has always been an adventurer, achievement oriented, and overall determined person, which has helped him tremendously in his career. He found himself working at a company out of college for over 5 years, felt unfulfilled, and totally rethought his priorities and what he really valued. That was when he jumped in the tech space working for only $10/hour, even with having a lot of experience and a master’s degree, but it didn’t matter because it was a great fit as they aligned with his values.
In the discussion, Daniel talks about The Courage Collective and how they are helping transform the employee experience, all the way from recruiting to post work, the holistic approach they bring to companies and making sure they are only partnering with companies who are truly invested in DEI and not just wanting to check off boxes.
“The companies that have been great partners for us, they're allocating resources, they have a committee that's focused on the work or they have someone who's leading the work. It's not just one person's responsibility, but it's now a value of the organization. And not just in words, but in action.”
I want to welcome all of our listeners to another episode of Minority Report Podcast, Erik and Kerel. Each episode, we talk with leaders in business, tech and media and today joining us is Daniel Oppong who is founder of The Courage Collective. Let's jump in and get to know Daniel. Daniel, welcome. How are you?
Daniel Oppong 0:26
Great, Erik. Thanks for having me.
Absolutely. We're thrilled to have you and can't wait to hear about all the exciting stuff you're working on. Truly great work. But first, tell us a little bit about Daniel, because you're joining us from Nashville?
Daniel Oppong 0:41
Correct, joining from Nashville, Tennessee. So I was telling Kerel earlier, I've been here since 2015. Moved here after grad school, studied organizational leadership at Gonzaga University. Go Zag's except for not this year, we had a rough run in the March Madness tournament. But anyway, moved here after grad school to work in venture capital, which was interesting, because I had never done anything of the likes when I got here. But yeah, took a job at Jumpstart Foundry, which is a meaningful stop in my career. Only reason I applied is because there's someone who looks like me on the founding team, which was inspirational for me. So worked there for a little bit, four years and then went to work at a tech company, which is where I met my friend Nani, who y'all got to interview. Fantastic human. Met her at Limeade. Yeah, shout out to Nani and then some other folks who are on The Courage Collective now. And yeah, then 2020 happened, was jarring for a lot of us and so just kind of made me reprioritize what do I care about, what do I want to invest in? And that's part of what led to The Courage Collective. The other piece that I'll mention, I'm the son of immigrant parents, and my parents immigrated here from Ghana, West Africa in the mid 80s. And so that's pretty important for my own story, largely because they created a path for me, and I think it was a meaningful part of my journey.
Daniel you mentioned something there in your intro that I think is fascinating that I think we are seeing happen more and more these days where you said, you went to this company, because you saw someone there that looked like you and that just sort of made, I think, you feel comfortable with the opportunity, knowing that there was someone there that you could potentially relate to. Can you talk about that for a minute?
Daniel Oppong 2:20
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's super interesting, because when I look at the trajectory of my own career, more often than not, I've been one of the few or one of the only, right? So I started my career working in the nonprofit sector, then I worked in retail sales for a little bit, then I worked in higher education, then I went to venture. And venture is historically very homogenous, very white, not very many opportunities for black folks. And I just remember, the co founder of the venture fund, Marcus Whitney, he's a black man. And his story is really fascinating too, he'd be a great person for you to talk to, but he taught himself how to code and became a software engineer and then worked at a tech company. And now fast forward, he launched a venture fund called Jumpstart Novo, which is one of the only if not the only black fund that invests directly in black health tech founders. $50 million fund and this guy, like, when I look at his trajectory, it's really inspiring. But when I think about my story, on paper, I had no business getting the job at Jumpstart. I had never worked in healthcare, I had never worked in tech, I had never worked in venture, I had never done anything in HR. And they hired me to lead people ops at a venture capital health tech fund. So I think for me, him being there and seeing, like me seeing that, and him believing in me was a major catalyst for my own journey. Right? I think it's pretty important just across the board.
That's great. And it's interesting, Kerel and I talk with so many people about that chance, that opportunity, that moment, right, and, you know, my grandma used to have a saying, 'You got to take a chance to get a chance,' right? And Kerel always says, you know, doors may open, but you got to walk through that door as well, right? Tell us about how you think you've developed that adventurousness, that courage because your family coming from West Africa from Ghana, right? Like, I'm guessing, you've talked about it before, like, doctor lawyer, PHD, and you're like, I'm gonna do this other thing. How'd that work out?
Daniel Oppong 4:17
(laughs) Yeah, man. It's really interesting because yeah, that is the joke with immigrant kids. It's like, you can be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, get a PhD. My dad is a lifelong academic. Right? So he is a PhD Associate Dean of Grad School and that's been his whole career. Like, I just knew that that wasn't the path, but I think specifically what prompted it is I've always been a pretty like, achievement oriented or determined person. And so I originally went to school to play football. I ended up having a couple of knee injuries which kind of derailed my career and then I got into other work and just pursued that but I remember coming to the end of that, it's probably five or six years that I worked for this organization, and I got to the end, and it felt pretty unfulfilling. I had done the things that you're supposed to do and achieved a certain level of success, but I got to the end, I'm like, "This actually isn't filling me." So then I started to ask myself different questions like, "How do I want to feel? Not what do I want to do, but how do I want to feel about that? And then what do I want to create in the world," right? So that just, it changed my paradigm, and even my approach to work. And so when I was moving to Nashville, you know, I had other opportunities that I was considering. And it's funny, because I actually ended up taking an internship with Jumpstart for $10 an hour. At the time, I was 27, right? I have a master's degree, I'm like, "Yeah, I'll work for $10 an hour, no big deal," because it aligned with what I actually wanted on the inside, not just this big thing, like future state. But it actually transformed my professional career and really set me up on a good path. So yeah, I think for me, it's like, asking the question of "How do I want to feel? And as a result of that, what do I want to prioritize?" I think that was a major catalyst.
That's great. I want to ask you about what's going on today with The Courage Collective. Can you tell us about some of the work that you're doing and tell us about what every week and every month sort of looks like for you?
Daniel Oppong 6:08
Yeah, Courage Collective has been one of the most meaningful things that I've done. And I knew when, you know, we started it back in 2020 that it was that. You know whenever you create something, you're like, wow, like, similar to y'all with the podcast, like, there's something in here that you're putting your soul into, and you want to see it come to life. Coach Collective has been that for us. And so, generally speaking, I mean, the work has kind of evolved since we started. The core of the business is we do consulting work, either project based consulting, or more like employee experience, and DEI, the intersection of those two ideas, consulting around that. And then we also do some training and development. What's been interesting is we started in 2020, which was, as we all know, a pretty peak moment, as related to the racial equity conversation, social justice, etc. So I think a lot of companies had a pretty reactive approach to that moment. And so they're trying to do whatever they can to appear anti racist, or, you know, do the right thing, whatever that means. And so there's a lot of activity, more frenzied activity, I think at the time, what's been interesting to fast forward to now is like a larger question of which companies are actually deeply invested in the work and where does it have staying power? Right? So for us, what that has looked like is, we're most interested in working with partners who we align with at a values level, right? If this is just a check the box initiative, or this is something that isn't substantive, we're not really interested in that kind of work, we're most interested in working with clients who share the same values who are looking to make a meaningful impact and invest in employee experience. And so yeah, that sort of self selection agency to it. At this point, some people are like, "Okay, candidates are asking us about our policy, like, help us do that." I'm like, okay, well, let's think about it holistically. If you're not thinking about it holistically, it's probably going to be hard to make meaningful progress.
You talked before about how that sort of transformation, it takes time, it takes resources, and it takes like a sustained intentionality. And I wanted to ask you, about like that, and connecting that to literally what you just said, right now, you know?
Daniel Oppong 8:16
Yeah, I mean, I think that's exactly it, like a lot of companies can be pretty short sighted in their approach. And, you know, I think there's a part of it where I can understand certain people just don't know what they don't know, right? And when I look at the DEI landscape more broadly, there are a few concepts that have been socialized. So like, let's think about unconscious bias training, for one, and then recruiting. So whenever you talk about DEI, people will quickly say, we need to hire more people of color, or more LGBTQ folks, or we need to do an unconscious bias training. And that's usually where they stop. Sometimes people include employee resource groups. And for me, when I look at it, I'm like, Okay, if those are the only things you're doing, and that's just the tip of the iceberg, we have to look at it more holistically. And I think what we're seeing now fast forward to 2022, it's not a peak moment, it's not in the news in the same way, company's priorities have changed. And maybe they're not willing to allocate the resources, or it's not as on trend and so they're not really sure if they want to allocate resources to it and put a team together to support it. So I think for me, the companies that have worked really, like for us, that have been great partners for us, they're allocating resources, they have a committee that's focused on the work or they have someone who's leading the work. It's not just one person's responsibility, but it's now a value of the organization, and not just in words, but in action, right? They're putting it into action and really demonstrating investment and prioritization there. So that's what I think it takes to actually transform and see meaningful impact there.
I want to ask you too, how long does it really take to find out if a company is just about checking the box or if they really want to be in it for the long haul? Can you decipher that during the prospecting phase or does it take two years to figure that out?
Daniel Oppong 10:05
Yeah, Kerel, that's a great question. I think the answer is the moment you ask them "So what kind of budget do you have allocated to this?" you know if they're in it to win it or not. Because what happens is like, if you think about the things that companies prioritize, prioritization comes with resources, right? So if they're thinking about customer acquisition, for example, they're probably investing resources in their marketing and customer acquisition strategy. If they're thinking about product, right, we care about our product, and we want our product to be top notch. What are they doing? Investing time, dollars and resources into tidying up the product. When we ask about DEI, "So what kind of resources are you allocating to this?" It's crickets. Dude, I'm telling you, it's kind of funny laughing at it now, like, there are people when we go to the proposal phase, they just ghost or like, "We're looking to spend a fraction of anything." And it's not even about the money. To me, money is more a reflection of what you're prioritizing and what you really care about, right? And so for me in those conversations, number one, I usually lead with that, "Hey, we care about values alignment, and we want to make sure that we're on the same page here." And that's the first thing and the moment that some people figure out that it's not just a quick solve, that's when you see them kind of "Oh, so you're not just gonna help us put something on our website?" I'm like, we can do that, but what I'm really in this work for is impact, transformation, making the working world better for people who look like me. And if we're not aligned on that motivation, like there's no platitude on your website, that's going to check that box. So I'm not actually interested in that, because it doesn't actually lead to the results you want. And I think there's this story around DEI like, you know, "DEI, we tried it and it doesn't work." And my question would be like, "Well, how did you approach it? Did you approach it with the same level of focus and dedication and even resource allocation that you do your customer acquisition strategy, your growth strategy, your people operations? If not, then there's probably a reason for it." And that gets teased out pretty quickly in a few conversations.
None of those are quick solves.
Daniel Oppong 12:10
(laughs) Right. Like, if you're thinking about product, right? We're trying to make our product, take our products to the next level. Can you do one thing with your product and say, "Okay, we tried it, and it didn't work?" No. It's an iterative process that takes time and energy and resources, right? And it happens over the course of time. And so that's the thing, like, it's interesting, when you look at DEI and even creating a culture, so that's pretty adjacent, creating a culture where people feel like they can bring their whole selves to work and feel empowered, etc. That takes effort and intention and values alignment, and a whole thing. And so, like you said, none of those things are quick fixes. And so I think it's unfortunate that people think about DEI through that lens, it's a major missed opportunity. And the companies that we've worked with that are actually seeing meaningful progress, they've been invested over the long haul. It's not the idea that you need to know everything, but are you committed to the process? And are you willing to do the work? That's the question.
Right, right. And so let me ask you another question on that. Let's talk about measurement, for example, right? Because, you know, Erik and I are both in the ad tech and mar tech space and he and I both have talked about how everything in our space gets measured, right? Ad dollars gets measured, effectiveness of campaigns get measured, but then when it comes to DEI, all of a sudden, we don't want to talk about measurement, right, and how did we do, right? And so talk to us a little bit about the good companies that are out there, really making an effort, understanding that this is a journey, how are they going about measuring their progress and measuring their results?
Yeah, it's a great question. The first thing I would say is the main place people usually go is recruiting, right? So they look at their company, be like, "Our company is pretty homogenous. We need to bring in more people, black and brown folks," right? And I think it's often well intentioned, but also can often miss the mark. Here's why, because if we're only thinking about bringing people in from underrepresented groups, what is going to happen once they get there? Right? So we bring in a whole group of people who don't share the identities of the folks who are already in the company and then we want them to magically come in and be successful, like, how does that work? So one of the things that we encourage, like your current representation does tell a story about your hiring practices and what you value. Let's look at that and evaluate that. It's not to say that people shouldn't focus on representation, I think that they should, it does matter and also, it's only part of the equation. The next thing that I would speak to from a measurement perspective, what is the employee experience? And so one of the things that we do with The Courage Collective is we come in and facilitate an inclusion and belonging survey. And part of what we're asking is, how are you experiencing the organization and one of the things that's interesting is to look at it by identity groups or like parse out the data. Right? So how are you experiencing the organization? And for example, if you say 88% of people feel like they can bring their authentic selves to work, let's measure that again in a year and put some intention towards it. And can we get that number to 92? Or 94? Right? Like so looking at some of those drivers of engagement, and measuring those and then taking another audit on those and seeing like, how are they evolving and progressing over time, that's another thing that I would say some of the effective companies do. And then the final thing I would call out is, we often encourage companies to think about commitments as opposed to goals, right? So goals are pretty finite. Once you achieve a goal, you can say, Okay, we did that. And now we don't have to focus on it anymore. So we encourage companies to think about, is like, what are you committing to over time, and let's measure where we are as it relates to that commitment and then fast forward 12 to 18 months, where are we now and then you can report out against those commitments, right? And one of the things we think about is like, let's make sure those commitments are connected to the employee journey, right? So we can look at pre employment, we can look at while they're at the company, we can look at post employment, once they leave, let's make sure that we're tracking those measurements and those commitments to things that actually measurably improve the experience. And I think whenever we look at companies who are doing it well, that's kind of how they're thinking about it. More holistic, less acute and less finite.
That's great. Hey, companies out there, if you're paying attention. I mean...
Daniel Oppong 16:25
That was free game! (laughs)
You're getting some real good, real life information here. So I'm curious, now you've created the opportunity, right, folks are here now, can you talk to us a little bit about the difference between like culture fit versus culture adds?
Yeah, totally. So it's an interesting concept that's been, I think it's getting more socialized and so culture fit versus culture add, specifically in the talent acquisition context. And so what we're talking about here is when you're looking to recruit, who are you bringing into the organization, and I think, especially with the rise of kind of the startup ecosystem over the last, let's say, two decades, and the way that people are thinking about their culture, one of the themes that comes up a lot is culture fit. So they are looking to hire someone who is a culture fit for the organization. The problem with that is usually culture fit means you have to reflect the existing norms of the culture, right? So you have to be like everyone else who is already here. And so when we think about people who come from untraditional backgrounds, if we're only looking for fit, like I didn't go to Harvard, I didn't go to Yale, I don't have an MBA. So on paper, thinking about my last role at Jumpstart, I probably didn't fit the traditional mold of someone who works in venture capital, right? But they looked at me and they said, "Hey, like, based upon your skills and experience, we believe that you could add something valuable to our company," which is the idea of culture add. So not looking for someone who fits the existing norms, but thinking like, "What can someone new bring and add to our culture in a way that makes them more dynamic, and really supports the growth?" The thing that I have to call out though, is that is not an easy thing. When you bring in someone who is maybe has different experience or perspective that doesn't fit the existing norms a lot of people say like, let's just hire someone new, and it's going to be great. That's just not the reality. The question I would ask is, is your culture setup to actually support people who may come from different backgrounds, right? And so I think that's where the companies can look in the mirror and say, "How are we supporting people who we want them to come, but when they come what is their experience like and how are we going to make sure that they're set up to be successful?" So that's the contrast, cultural fit is homogenous, culture add is like, bring your unique self, and there's going to be space for you to be successful here.
Awesome. Thank you for the breakdown. Pay attention, everybody. So it sounds like what you're saying is there's no shortcuts to DEI, huh?
No shortcuts. Shoutout to our friends at Dagger Wing, who we collaborated with on an article, and that's the theme, there are no shortcuts, right? Like I think, if you want to do it intentionally and well and actually create a culture that's great for people. Exactly right. No shortcuts.
Yeah. You touched on something that really picked up on earlier around understanding, the belonging, and sort of inclusion. Can you talk about why those are important too in addition to, you know, the D and the E as well?
Daniel Oppong 19:21
Totally. Yeah, I think about belonging as the actual experience of feeling like you can be who you really are in a space and feel accepted, seen, acknowledged, celebrated, right? Like, you're not having to consistently compartmentalize or only show up as a fraction of yourself, you're showing up fully and authentically, and that's accepted and championed and celebrated. One of my buddies and colleagues, Michael, he's actually been working on this new paradigm or framework we're calling the artistry of belonging that speaks to how do we actually architect belonging in organizational cultures, right? And so the thing that I would highlight is like belonging looks and feels different for everyone, right? So like the three of us could be in a work environment and what it would mean for me to belong would be different than you, would be different than you and that's part of the challenge of organizations. But I think at a high level, it's asking those questions, what does it mean to be seen, to be acknowledged, to be heard, to be empowered? And how can we make sure that those things are part of the culture on a regular basis? And not just for the people who advocate for themselves or are in positions of power, but for everyone in the organization. How can we make sure we thread that through?
Thanks for that, I want to kind of bring it back to you a little bit here with the next question I have for you. All three of us are men of color, all three of us have had our own journeys in our lives, but I'm sure that if we sat down and compared notes, there have been some areas of similarity across our paths. Right? And so I want to ask you a little bit about discrimination in terms of your experiences, how you've dealt with it personally, in the past, and, you know, any advice for anyone that might be up against some level of discrimination for themselves personally?
Yeah, it's a thoughtful question, man. I mean, I think that where I would start is, for anyone who has experienced it, it's just empathy for the human experience, because it's tough, right? Like, it's tough to try to navigate predominantly white spaces or places where maybe you're not in a position of power, and know how to be what's expected of you, like, how are you going to progress and evolve? Right? So I think about that as a high level theme. What is the cost of me being fully and authentically myself? What happens if I speak up? What do I have to lose? Right? Like, what are the perceived consequences? Those are all things that, that come up for me. And I think on a personal level, you know, one of the places where I can think about it is specifically when I've pursued job opportunities, right? And so now I work for myself so it's not something that I have to consider as much, but I remember when I would apply for jobs, and I'd be like, am I not getting this opportunity because I'm not qualified, or because I'm a black person, right? Because when I look at the qualifications, I think I have most of the requisite skills that they're looking for but I didn't go to an Ivy, I don't have an MBA, so what are the actual reasons, right? And part of it, my last name is Oppong, right, so like, when they see my name on a resume, what category does that put me in? I started to put my picture on the resume, so like, I'm just going to answer that question off jump so if this is going to be a problem, like screen me out now, like, don't take me all the way through the process and then I get filtered out later, for reasons that, you know, don't make sense. So it's more just a question and no one's gonna say like, "We didn't hire you, because you're a black person," but it's a question that I would face like, what is the actual reason here? So that's one thing that I can think about, you know, as I've gone through some of these client pitches, with this DEI work, it's another thing, it's really fascinating, because out of all the companies that we've worked with, in the sales process, I think I've only encountered three people of color. And the conversations that I have with people who are people of color, versus, it's just so different. It's so different, like the positioning and posturing, and I try to show up and be authentic and lead with values, but I can just see the differences when someone is relating to someone who looks like them. I can't overtly say, "Well, I'm not getting this because they're discriminating." That's not the point. But it's just that conscious "How am I showing up? How do I need to be? What can I say and not say? What are the consequences?" I mean, we think about Ketanji Brown recently, like her confirmation hearing, how does she have to show up? How on point does she have to be all the time to make sure? Like sometimes I laugh and think like, what would it be like if we just showed up to a meeting in a wave cap or a do rag, right? Like, I gotta get myself together before I get on the call, because I have to make sure that I'm playing the game in a way. And so there's a part of that, that I think throughout my career has been exhausting. And sometimes for people who don't share that experience it's hard to explain. But y'all know, y'all know what it's like to be in those spaces and have to bite your tongue or be super conscious about how you're showing up and how you're going to be perceived, received or experienced.
Especially that piece of carrying that weight and that burden that no one knows about. Right? It's exhausting. And I think what's interesting is you point so much out that there's just been groups and groups of people that never even have that as a factor weigh on them throughout any sort of process. It's just fascinating to examine and have you point out. So, question about where you learned, you know, how to sort of power through things, navigate things, work through things. Did that come from your family? Mentors? Who were folks that kind of influenced your, sort of, superpowers now? Where did that come from?
Yeah, I think that Marcus was definitely a mentor. You know, he was one of the few black folks in venture capital in tech. And I remember seeing him and being like, "Okay, well if he can make it, then maybe I can, too." But then also, I probably learned more from him just by watching him than even some of the conversations that we had.
Give us an example.
Daniel Oppong 25:43
Yeah, just watching the way that he would interact with investors or startups or startup founders and the questions he would ask, the things that he was thinking about, like, he just knew who he was and how to carry himself in the space in a way that like he wasn't, he just was authentic. And it was just really inspiring to me. I think part of what I would say too, is his business partner, Vic created an environment where that was possible. So I kind of saw it and modeled in a really good way, but I think that gave me a lot of support and even inspiration. I think the other thing I would say is like, as one of the few or one of the only, I think it's a learned behavior to just assimilate, right? So like, what do I need to be in this environment to survive? And I think as I've gotten into my career, and now that I work for myself, I'm less interested in assimilation and more intent on being authentic. But I think that's a real challenge that people from underrepresented groups face is like, "If I am myself, what are the consequences here?" And so what we often see is, as a survival tactic, people will assimilate to the existing norms to survive. And so for me, it's been really important to see some people who aren't. Like, I remember I did a facilitation session for one of our company partners, and I went into the room, and most of the people were black and brown. And it was like, the sigh of relief I could have in that space, right, like the way that we could engage is just so empowering. And so yeah, I think over the course of my journey, I'd say Marcus is one, my parents have also been inspirations, but I think part of the work for me has been deconstructing the way that I felt like I needed to assimilate in order to belong, and saying, like, "No, I'm going to be authentic, and let that create space for me and create space for me at the table." So last thing, I'll say one of my colleagues, Stacy, we launched the brand called Liberation Conversations. exactly for that reason. The idea is like, we wanted to create a space where black folks could show up and be their authentic self. And so when I talked to her, she had worked in a mostly white space and she said, "I'm not interested in centering the experiences of white folks, I want to create a space for black folks where we can come and experience our own liberation." So that was the genesis of the conversation. So that's been another meaningful space for me where I get to connect with other folks who are on the same journey.
Alright, Daniel I got a fun question I love asking every guest that we have. on the podcast which is to give us the top three apps that you use on your phone on a regular basis, but you can't name email, calendar or text messaging, because those are way too boring.
Daniel Oppong 28:26
(laughs) Top three apps. Okay, I would say I'm a big sports fan, I gotta say and so sadly, I'm a Cowboys fan, which is, I probably shouldn't admit that out loud. Also a Zag fan. So yeah, I keep up with like ESPN and Bleacher Report, so those are ones and then whenever fantasy football is happening, I'm dabbling. I also am a big podcast person. So I have a few podcasts that I listen to. And then I also like audiobooks. Reading, like actual books, I just do it so slowly and so I use Audible for audiobooks and I can get through books a lot more quickly, then. And then yeah, some social media stuff, but I'm not super like hardcore on social media.
Yeah it's easier to sort of rewind back a little bit in here, right? Just go back and be like, oh, I heard it again, I heard it again. Okay, now I got it. Right? (laughs)
Daniel Oppong 29:19
Well, that's great. Well, Daniel, thanks for hanging with us and spending a little bit of time and sharing a lot of great insights. And also talking about you and your personal experiences. What are some ways that our audience can stay in touch and reach out to you?
Daniel Oppong 29:33
Yeah, so I would say easy one would be LinkedIn. So you can find me on LinkedIn, Daniel Oppong. Or you can look at The Courage Collective on LinkedIn. Real quick, I have to do a plug for Boundless which is a brand we launched recently. And so Boundless is designed to create access for black and brown folks in marketing, consulting and tech. And so we're going to run our first fellowship program this summer. So that should be exciting. It's early career folks and so if companies are looking to do some of the hiring that we talked about that can be a great brand for them to partner with. So you can find Boundless on LinkedIn as well. And then on IG, it's @_danielo5. So those are probably the main ways.
Fantastic. Everyone, thanks again for listening to another episode. And if you're looking for more episodes, you can find more where you find all of your audio and video, just search Minority Report Podcast and look for the logo. Thanks again, Daniel and thanks everyone for listening.
Daniel Oppong 30:23